This is a transcript. Access the episode here.
Travis Holland (00:24)
Welcome to Fossils and Fiction. In this episode, Alyssa and I are going to take a bit of a different track and talk about open publishing and open science. And this has been inspired, rather than expired, by some friends of ours or some colleagues who are working on getting some funding for a volume that they’re publishing. We’ll have one of them, Colin Boisvert who’s been a former guest on the pod, talk about it a bit later on, but…
We’ll get into that in quite specifics. what we wanted to chat about, I think, was this ideal of open access and how hard it can be sometimes to get science published in a way that makes it accessible, but also why that’s really important. And for anyone out there who’s not in academia, to understand why science is sometimes tied up behind paywalls can be, you know, it can be difficult to understand.
I think even for those of us who are in the publishing business, who are in the game as such, can also be like, why am I paying 40 bucks to access this article? This shouldn’t be happening. So we just thought we’d have a bit of a look at that.
Alyssa Fjeld (01:32)
Right, so back in 2019, I was working at a national park as an intern and it’s rural America. It’s a place where a lot of people are kind of, if not science, like anti-science, they’re dubious of modern science. And I was curious why they felt that way. And I did have a conversation with one of the visitors to the park that felt that way. And one of the things that they kind of expressed was
that they felt like science was not accessible to them. And it’s like, if this is something that’s moving society forward, why can’t everyone in society read it? Why can’t they have access to it? And I guess this kind of growing sense that, know, paywalls and things like that make science less ethical in ways that are not just that the scientists themselves aren’t able to pay for it, but that they then take like grant money from private companies in order to afford the kind of publication fees.
And if you’re listening along at home and you’ve never published an academic article, then I wish I was you, you know, a kind of peace that I’ll never have again, but it is expensive a lot of the times, even just to submit a paper. And then you have people in like professional academic fields who maybe don’t have the affiliations to then read the articles published in that journal or in other journals that have to pay money to access individual articles. It’s still a-
Pretty significant sum, like $40, $60 sometimes, $200.
Travis Holland (02:55)
Yeah, yeah, it really varies. So we get, and I think what you’re getting at is this, what might be called a paywall paradox, right? That you’ve got publicly funded research that’s then locked behind these article access fees. So scientists are doing the research.
doing the peer review for free, then universities pay again to access the work of their scientists and other scientists or other researchers. And so one of the evolving methods that’s come up to address this is article processing charges. So this means that once your article is accepted, you pay for an open access fee instead of having the reader pay on the other end. And this is where we’ll get to the campaign later on that kind of brought up this topic for us. But
Those fees can be really substantial and so you can pay, know, thousands of dollars for an article to be published. Some journals are free and essentially just run on either grant funding from, you know, an organisation that hosts them like a society, an academic society, but particularly the ones that sit with the large major publishers, they either have pay to access or pay to publish models in some way or another.
Alyssa Fjeld (04:02)
Well, I think you’re heading to something else that’s really important that I think a lot of people aren’t very aware of, which is that a lot of academic publishers are, it’s not as if every university has its own publication and they all get equal funding. There are monopolies, like massive monopolies within academic publishing like Elsevier. And when you have any monopoly in any industry, creates a lot of…
problems in the ecosystem, it means that if you want to be in a high impact journal, you have to participate in, you know, paying quite a substantial fee or being affiliated with a university that has the money to do that. And I would say that one of the other things that I’ve run up against with people
being, I guess, mistrustful of science is this idea that it’s not just that they can’t access what scientists are saying about their results, but they don’t feel like they’re able to access the actual data or the concepts or the methodologies behind the way that science is done now. Like there’s this skepticism that because it’s all done on very big computers or in like, as you’re probably aware, very niche ways often that it’s…
mysterious and maybe something that they don’t really trust. And part of that is that nowadays when we publish scientific articles, even if they’re online, restricted to a certain number of pages, we can’t put all of the data that we collect or all of the ways we analyze it into a document that is published in that way. So if there’s no supplementary, if there’s no additional information provided somewhere else in some other archive, people can’t replicate what you’re doing.
Travis Holland (05:38)
The replication challenge is really an issue for STEM quite often, having access to that data. It’s less of a case in the humanities where we tend to be examining particular case studies for particular reasons, and so there’s not necessarily a need to replicate them.
The other thing that you get, maybe this is what you’re getting at, is that one of the accessibility issues for lots of science and modern research is the language that builds up as well. So the language can be really arcane, but it’s also quite specific, you know, and it has to be because if you’re not referring to, in the case of paleontology or biology, if you’re not referring to the very specific animal group,
properly and adequately so that other people can do that tracing and know what you’re referring to, then that in itself can cause problems. But having those really, really specific names then can shut other people out. So if they don’t have that knowledge. And so, you know, that same kind of thing replicates. We kind of fall into this trap sometimes of using shorthand for, you know, a theory name that lots of people might know or…
you know, an animal group that lots of people in the, in the field would know, but that other people outside of it don’t know. And to know when to add extra information and break up the flow of the article by doing that versus not adding that extra information so that, the page length doesn’t blow out or the word count doesn’t blow out, for example, can be, can be a really tricky thing.
Alyssa Fjeld (07:07)
Right, so one of the other issues that you run into with jargon and science as well is that sometimes different groups will use different terminology and the groups may even be aware of one another, but they might not communicate that they are using slightly different understandings of concepts when they’re publishing individual papers.
Or you might end up with situations where the paper itself is very solid, the terminology is very good, but then if you were to look in the supplementary material, depending on how the person has collected, organized, and archived their data, this could be a completely inaccessible document to you.
Travis Holland (07:44)
Yeah, I’ve run into that exact situation working interdisciplinary, obviously interdisciplinary science is fantastic and we all should do more of it. But again, within each of our own individual fields, we’ve often developed fairly specialist knowledge and to give the really specific example within communication and media, is my background.
We use a term platform ecology or media ecology quite often to refer to the ways that different platforms and the rules and norms and behaviours on those platforms intersect with each other and interact as well as the different media objects and those kinds of things. But I was writing a paper with one of the co-authors who was an ornithologist and she really wasn’t happy with the term ecology being used to refer to non-natural things. But
Within my field, that’s been in place since the 60s. It’s not like it was a new coining or anything like that. But the objection to it came through, you know, and we worked through it. And it’s only a very small thing, a small road bump on the process to getting that work published. it was one of those instances where I found, that’s something that…
just makes sense in my field but for other people outside the field without that extra knowledge and that extra reading that single word can cause a problem because it means something entirely different for them.
Alyssa Fjeld (09:07)
Right,
I’ve learned that lesson with terms that are used in specific statistical and mathematical ways. For example, I believe the phrase is almost surely or almost certainly is something that actually means something to mathematicians. So using it in papers where you’re discussing mathematic concepts is a no-go, but I don’t think that was something I’d ever learned and probably wouldn’t have if I hadn’t interacted with that subfield.
Travis Holland (09:32)
So peer review can take anywhere from like six to 18 months or longer sometimes. And what’s happening now, particularly with AI and the way that AI is generating or being used to generate huge amounts of text and submissions, as well as the pressure on individual researchers to actually get published, is that more and more peer review is needing to be completed all the time.
but in specialised fields there is still a pretty limited pool of reviewers. And so there becomes this potential issue where the peer review crisis is starting to occur. There’s just too many papers and people can’t…
review them or there were not enough qualified reviewers, which is becoming a potential problem because it’s starting to blow peer review times out quite a long way. It’s really become an issue in the last three or four years with the rise of this rapid
processing writing tool that we see in AI, generative AI as well. yeah, that’s another problem. I guess something I’ve noticed and I’ve not published in paleontology except for a book review, but I guess I still read a lot of these papers. And to me, there’s something quite fundamental in paleontology that you can’t do right. And that’s because you’re basing on real specimens and there’s often only one.
specimen. You know, sometimes people don’t realize this for a lot of paleontology, the description and all the analysis is occurring on literally one specimen of that animal. It’s actually the minority case to have more than one in many parts of the field.
For that one specimen, other people then need access to that data, right? They need access to, they know, so that they can code things into the matrix and figure out where those creatures fit in relation to other similar creatures. Others who are basing their analysis on the previous work or the description of that, perhaps they need to be able to check the data and the standardization of language is really important. if…
a particular specimen has been described in a paper that is locked up behind a paywall, it actually can have really severe consequences here because you then can’t include that specimen if you can’t access it into your own analyses going forward and you can’t place it on the phylogenetic trees and you can’t figure out what it relates to and what it’s like.
So for me, you know, I can see that being a real problem in paleontology given the limitations of the real specimens that you’re working with. mean, a fossil is a unique archive. You can’t synthesize a new dinosaur in a lab. Outside of Jurassic Park, you can’t do that, right? So those fossils are so unique and so important. And for any taxonomic work, it’s going to require comparing specimens worldwide.
Alyssa Fjeld (12:08)
Right.
Travis Holland (12:17)
The way to do that is to have accurate information in public papers that have been published. So you can say, well, is this a new species or is this just poor documentation? Is this a new species? Because I need to know if it compares to the one that was found on the other side of the country or the other side of the world in some cases to figure that out. So, yeah, that in itself can be a real challenge.
Alyssa Fjeld (12:38)
if you’re checking for me, can follow time.
Yeah, I mean, and if you’re checking it against the holotype or something like that, that’s also a massive issue, right? Like in order to determine whether something is a new species or not, even if you have representative members from the species you’re checking in against, you have to go look at the holotype or have data about the holotype. And this is an issue that’s been in paleontology since its inception, right? And we’ve come a long way from the days of having to sketch something and just kind of
Tell someone in a paper, trust me guys, we really have this, to having photographs and plates, plates, figures. And now we’ve entered the new digital age where we can scan the specimens, which still provides quite a lot of data that could be used if you’re doing a peer review, data that could be used if you’re making a new publication about a similar species, as you’re saying.
And the funny thing is a lot of this has come about in part because non-destructive sampling is something that needs to be done in paleontology in certain cases where we’re being sensitive to, for example, the cultural practices of Aboriginal people who do not want fossils touched, removed, or damaged. So doing things like scanning trackways and making 3D models has come about in part because of, you know, including more indigenous knowledge and indigenous tradition.
And I just think, you know, if we’re already collecting this data, if we’re using it, if we’re getting it, why not make it accessible to everyone?
Travis Holland (14:05)
another concern just relevant to paleontology but to lots of science.
is that researchers in the global south are often really priced out of these systems if we don’t have open data and open access and the tools to analyze that data in the first place. But in the case of paleontology, we have seen it really be the case where people from the global north will come into a country and you get this fossil colonialism or paleontology.
paleontological colonialism where they’re scooping up fossils, taking them back to their own country to analyze. And then the researchers in the countries where they originate from don’t have access to either the fossil itself, to the data about it, or to the literature. And so even if they’re working on other specimens in that area,
historical specimens that had been subject to these processes might not be accessible, is a real challenge for us in the way that we organise academic work and research and all those kinds of things, but also for museums as well. Something else we see in paleontology, and this kind of comes back to our previous episode where we talked about heists, right, is the value of the value of specimens because…
One challenge for science is that you can’t be researching on a specimen that is locked up in a private collection. And so if something is locked up in a private collection and you can’t write papers on it, but you know it’s there, how do you fit that into existing frameworks of understanding, again, species, phylogenies, family groups, those kinds of things. And if it’s a particularly important specimen that…
maybe unique in some way, whether it’s due to age or whether it’s potentially a new species and it can’t be written about, then we just have these holes, unnecessary holes being introduced into the global knowledge pool.
Alyssa Fjeld (15:54)
Yeah, I mean, it’s especially a shame because when we talk about different land masses that have existed throughout the Paleozoic and Mesozoic, we’re talking about land masses that had contact with Australia, for example, South America and China are two locations that had a lot of proximity to Australia during the Cambrian. All of the Gondwanan and land masses, my understanding, a lot of those are in the Global South. And that’s, you know,
When we don’t have the ability to compare these specimens and make determinations about how mega continents were behaving in the kind of faunal connections, we’re missing a really big part of this story. And it’s also the case that, you know, lot of, I guess, snapshots into really short windows of evolutionary time are also in the global south. So things like the whale skeletons that we find off the coast of Chile are not off the coast. my gosh, they’re in like the dry, dry deserts.
I want them to be in the ocean, but yeah. Like whale evolution happens on a really short timeline compared to all of the other stuff that I usually look at. So, you know, when we talk about like what their jaws, legs and teeth were doing in these like small snapshots, that’s a really big part of the picture that we don’t have if we keep taking all the specimens away.
Travis Holland (16:47)
Formerly oceanic, yes. Ocean sediments.
Alyssa Fjeld (17:09)
And dinosaurs are a really great case because, you know, we’re talking about Pangea, we’re talking about a massive landmass, and we’re talking about points on that landmass that were quite distant from points we know a lot about. This is really valuable information that’s telling us about a time period that we just have no modern analog for. All of the information we can get is important.
Travis Holland (17:32)
Now all that said, it’s not all doom and gloom, right? There are some ways about this. And so…
Although APCs, article processing charges, might be kind of difficult to overcome for some people and for organizations that don’t have a lot of cash for whatever reason, at least on the flip side, they are making the information and the articles publicly available, right? So that’s one thing that has emerged and is a change in the way that science occurs nowadays is, yeah, if you can pay upfront to cover the costs of producing the work and publishing the work, then you can access it.
Alyssa Fjeld (17:53)
Yeah.
Travis Holland (18:06)
access
for free out in the world. The other thing we’ve seen a lot of in the past decade is the rise of preprint servers. these are organizations which
in which you publish something before it has been peer reviewed. And so that allows science and information to get out into the public sphere much quicker. Now there’s dangers there because obviously if it hasn’t been peer reviewed, it hasn’t gone through that verification process. That’s potentially a problem. But nonetheless, again, it’s a kind of response to this challenge of delayed publication and delayed peer review that we’ve started to see. The other thing is, as you mentioned, Alyssa, the modern tools of
high resolution scanning and photogrammetry and all of those tools, 3D printing and scanning, which are fantastic to make material available for download and study so that people can use it no matter where they are in the world without, not only without not having access to the specimens, but without potentially destroying the specimens, the original specimens, because each handling of them risks some sort of damage And so
having the ability to do 3D scans, to print, to download and manipulate those models in either digital or real space without having to handle the original specimen is quite welcome and also means that effectively there is a backup. That if those originals are for some reason destroyed or lost, then in fact, so long as they have been properly catalogued and backed up, we should be okay because we should be able to still access the information.
Funding organizations like the Wellcome Trust, the EU’s funding scheme, they all now require open access publishing as well and are recognizing that and actually funding the open access publishing too. So that’s all useful. And in Australia, we have deals here that have been made by
I think it’s technically the Council of Australian University Librarians (CAUL) And they have made pay to publish deals, read and publish deals with the publishers, which means that instead of an individual research team having to come up with the research funds to pay an APC, for example, it’s kind of covered on a system wide basis all at once, which, you know, again, kind of evens that out. So that universities which perhaps don’t have access are almost cross subsidised.
And so the individual institutions are not having to pay, also for that matter, the individual researchers are not having to find the funds as well. yeah, there’s lots happening in this space, which I think is really helpful.
Alyssa Fjeld (20:31)
Yeah, and when we talk about doing the 3D scans as well, like there’s so many other benefits that come alongside it. We talk about using 3D prints of different skulls from Jan Juc in outreach here in Australia, or at least here in Melbourne. And we, know, I guess historically you would have had like casts of things in museums if you had any replace or any replicated material at all. But now that we do have the ability to 3D print and scan things,
It’s a much quicker process and it doesn’t damage the fossil to do it in the same way that making molds and casts once did. So, you know, if you have a particularly fragile fossil, especially some of like the transitionary bird fossils, or if you have just like a very thin delicate thing, doing a 3D scan allows you to not only ensure that that fossil is okay, just in case someone drops the museum drawer it’s in or the museum drawer floods or any number of things that.
you know, could happen to incredibly delicate or rare fossils. You’ve got something that can be replicated endlessly, which is great.
Travis Holland (21:31)
Okay, and so with all that out of the way, we’re now going to introduce this crowdfunding campaign that’s happening. Now this is to publish a volume of new research and updated analyses of well-known and existing specimens, particularly for diplodocid dinosaurs or diplodocoid dinosaurs.
And one of the involved authors is Colin Boisvert who we’ve had on the podcast here before. Cary Woodruff is another author involved. We’re to give you a little bit from Colin. It’s only a two minute segment here, so it’s not like a full interview, but Colin will tell you more about it. They’re trying to cover the APC, those article processing charges for
Paleontologica Electronica. Now this is a journal which actually doesn’t usually charge APCs, but as I understand in the particular case of this special edition or volume of articles that are being published, they need to do that just to cover the extra effort that’s going into publishing this very large collection of research on diplodocoid dinosaurs. Now,
The beautiful thing is they’ve actually reached the campaign funding goal of $3,000. They’ve already reached it. So what they’re now looking to fund, and hopefully some people out there listening to the podcast feel like chipping in, they’re now looking to fund some beautiful paleo art to go alongside the published open access works. So I hope that if you want to see some wonderful paleo art of
Diplodocoid dinosaurs, you will come to the party and help out with their campaign. We will put a link to this in the show notes, but if you want to go and look for it yourself, it’s on the platform experiment.com and just search for Diplodocus and you’ll be able to find it. So here is Colin talking all about the campaign.
Colin Boisvert (23:16)
my name is Colin Boisvert, I’m a PhD student at the Oklahoma State University Center for Health Sciences and I am one of the authors on a special volume on diplodocoid systematics, taxonomy, and biogeography in the journal Paleontologica Electronica. My paper focuses on the biogeography of diplodocoid using the Schopp et al. 2015 matrix and a program in R known as BioGeoBEARS to run a biogeographical analysis to understand more about how this clade diversified.
throughout their evolutionary history. And I think what’s been really interesting about the work while being a little bit vague because our work is still in review is that we have found that there are so many more questions that we need to now ask and hopefully future answers for us to find regarding the biogeography of this group. And there’s still so much to learn. Now, what are diplodocoids? Diplodocoids are the group of long neck dinosaurs that include Diplodocus, Apatosaurus, Barosaurus, Supersaurus, Amargosaurus. It’s a diverse group.
that was very successful over much of the Mesozoic era. And what’s really cool about this volume is it is a collaborative effort from scientists around the world, publishing papers in this open access special volume where anybody with an internet connection is going to be able to access the science and the data and be able to download it and use it for their own scientific research in the future, which is really cool. We are currently crowdfunding on experiment.com.
to help raise money to pay for an APC or article processing charge, which is a fee associated in this case with the special work going into helping produce this volume with the different papers too, which are already out and you can actually access on paleontological electronica, or you can find the links on the experiment.com campaign. And what’s exciting is we have hit our goal of $3,000. And so we’re now.
getting extra money in this case, paying paleo artists for art pieces for the special volume, which is really exciting. And so we still need your help to help hit these stretch goals and help us so we can get art from paleo artists for this special volume. So thank you for your help and your support and have a great day.
Travis Holland (25:18)
want to make a couple more points about open access. Firstly, open access isn’t just about access. It’s about ensuring the integrity of science by having as much information out there as possible. These are fossils that belong to deep time. The knowledge about them should be available to everyone.
as custodians of the prehistoric world, that is actual paleontologists, not just morons on podcasts like me, the duty is to make that world knowable. And so I really encourage people to look at ways to get science made public, whether it’s through supporting APC campaigns, like the one we’ve talked about here today, through pre-publication or pre-print servers, whatever it happens to be. And of course, if you’re in a position to
publish articles and publish research. We’d love to hear what you’re doing. We always love to hear new stuff here on Fossils and Fiction.
Alyssa Fjeld (26:10)
Absolutely.
Travis Holland (26:11)
And Alyssa, I have one more thing, one more fun thing to finish off this podcast. This is a fun little game. It is Paywall Paleontology Bingo. So what we’re going to do is create a bingo card here with frustrating phrases that researchers encounter or frustrating moments that you encounter in trying to access information and trying to get through some of these access things that we’ve talked about.
Alyssa Fjeld (26:17)
Go on.
Travis Holland (26:38)
So I’ve got some examples here, but I want you to come up with as many as you can as well. And we’ll put together the actual bingo card and release it so that people can play with it in their own career. And if somebody shows me that they’ve completed the bingo card, I will get them some stickers in the mail. How does that sound?
Alyssa Fjeld (26:56)
also, it’s a refreshing way to enjoy the review process for your paper publications instead of allowing it to drive you absolutely insane.
Travis Holland (27:04)
Exactly. Play along with
us instead of getting super frustrated. Okay, so this is the first point that I’m going to put on the bingo card. And then I know I’ve put you on the spot, but I want to see if you can come up with one. Just as the first example, I’m going to say that you request the full text of an article via ResearchGate and never get a reply.
Alyssa Fjeld (27:16)
Alright.
my God. I’m gonna say, my God, how do I put this? I think it’s when it allows you to go through the entire process of like putting your institution in, logging into your institution and at the end of the process, it says, this institution does not support open access for this journal.
Travis Holland (27:25)
You
That’s very frustrating. Absolutely good one for the bingo card. I’m going to go with cited paper that you can’t locate.
Alyssa Fjeld (27:52)
Hmm. Cites a paper where the author’s surname and given name are accidentally reversed, so it takes you like two extra hours to find it.
Travis Holland (28:03)
Oh yeah, What about contact corresponding author for data or access but the email bounces or they retired in 1987 or something like that.
Alyssa Fjeld (28:04)
Mm.
Thank
You get the full access, but it turns out it was just an abstract.
Travis Holland (28:20)
better yet, you think you’ve got full access, but it’s actually just a book review, not the actual book.
Alyssa Fjeld (28:27)
Or you get it, but for some reason the only version that you can have is like the version without the figures attached. Like it’s got the little page numbers next to it. It’s double spaced.
Travis Holland (28:38)
Okay, yeah,
Scale bar missing in photographs of specimens, that would be pretty frustrating.
Alyssa Fjeld (28:43)
Cool.
The paywall starts right where the specimen photos would be. So you get like just the taste.
Travis Holland (28:52)
Or similar to that, I’m going to go with Google Books hides the most useful pages.
Alyssa Fjeld (28:58)
Yeah, like they know or you get access to the article, but all of the supplementary data is the stuff that’s paywalled and you don’t have the access.
Travis Holland (29:10)
Yeah, that
What about type, specimen, whereabouts unknown?
Alyssa Fjeld (29:16)
or it makes a wild assertion about a species and the citation is like cut off in a scan.
Travis Holland (29:23)
so you can’t see the full citation. Yeah, that’s a tricky one. And this one’s just a very specific specimen, although I don’t think this is the only one that this happened to. holotype blown up in World War II.
Alyssa Fjeld (29:25)
and
can think of exactly one time that’s happened.
Travis Holland (29:37)
You
Alyssa Fjeld (29:37)
Specimen is in a private collection that doesn’t allow some type of photograph that you really need for comparison.
Travis Holland (29:45)
Okay, I think that’s a good start for our paleontology bingo. So what we’ll do is start to put the card together and if people have other suggestions, I want to hear it.
Alyssa Fjeld (29:45)
Thank
I’m sure there are more frustrations that you’ve all encountered that I can only dream of or have nightmares of. ⁓
Travis Holland (29:59)
Exactly.
Before we wrap up the episode, I just want to note that one of my favourite video game series is releasing the third sequel on October 21. It’s Jurassic World Evolution 3 and I’m looking forward to it. Anyone who’s not come across the Jurassic World Evolution series, this is a video game in which you make your own dinosaur parks, just like the people running Jurassic Park and Jurassic World did in the movies.
And it’s fantastic. My favourite aspect of it though is to go all naturalist and that’s all naturalist, not all natural and go out into the park with a camera and just take photos of the dinosaurs. I love doing that. It’s fantastic and setting up the environments for them to interact with or be in is amazing fun.
Alyssa Fjeld (30:48)
It would be so cool to have like a Pokemon Snap version of the game, you know, where you’re just photographing dinosaurs.
Travis Holland (30:54)
you do get cash for photographing the dinosaurs and so like the composition, the variety of dinosaurs and capturing different actions is a good way to make money sometimes in these games. So I’m hoping that that mechanic returns. But yeah, I fully agree. Like having a level or a challenge where your whole thing was to go out and photograph all the different dinosaurs in a particular park, that would be a lot of fun.
Alyssa Fjeld (31:18)
Yeah, you can give them little snacks to bring them closer and be super cute.
Travis Holland (31:23)
man, throwing like apples at them the way they do in Pokémon Snap.
Alyssa Fjeld (31:28)
could you
imagine like a little of Montessori’s with a carrot?
Travis Holland (31:32)
Yeah, that would be amazing. Okay, okay. This is, this is, yeah, this is a really good idea. I really want to see this in as a mod for Jurassic World Evolution 3. So I’m looking forward to playing that game. There won’t be podcasts for several months while I’m playing that game, just to be very, just very clear, putting it out there because it’s going to take up a lot of my time. But Alyssa thank you so much. We’ll talk next time.
Alyssa Fjeld (31:46)
haha
you
Yeah, thanks Travis and thanks to the listeners at home. Look forward to seeing your bingo responses.
